November 2007
Posted on the 27th at 6:27 PM CST
People Using IE6 Need Their Ass Kicked
Filed under Rants
Filed under Rants
Don't use IE6, people. It is an outdated piece of crap. "But I would be so lost without the occasional and unexplainable crash". Yes, I know, but try not to think about that. Just close your eyes and upgrade. Treat it like an old band-aid and take it right off! You won't feel a thing, I promise.
For those of you out there reading this that are smart enough to not be using IE6, I must say that everytime someone visits my blog from an IE6 browser (or older), they get the following message each and every time the page loads...
UPDATED February 7th, 2008: I have came up with a less obtrusive way of notifying users...
Why? Because this site looks and performs horrible in IE6. Why? Becuase IE6 does not support modern web standards. Why? Because it is older than dirt. I do realize that IE6 is still used quite a bit today, but I have decided to forget about them. A brave move, yes, but I felt that it was time to put my foot down. Consequently, I had a juicy little email waiting for me when I got home from work today...
From: It doesn't matter [mailto:doicare@notme.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2007 11:22 AM
To: Josh Stodola
Subject: You
What an ass you are. I will choose which browser to use, and which sites to browse to; if you understand me?
Oh I understand you quite well, anonymous coward from the United Kingdom. I understand that you have an intimate relationship with IE6 that you want to ride out until the very end. I understand that you have a prenuptial agreement with IE6 in which you will be the one getting the shaft once you decide to move on with your life. And I understand your sad Internet-browsing choices. Whoopee.
I have these choices, too. I choose not to support you because you want to be stubborn and archaic. Deal with it. If you don't like the message, then go away. I don't care if you choose to leave. Although I'd really like for you to stick around. I really would. But I am never going to support that garbage you browse with. I waste many hours at my job comprising hacky workarounds just to make things manageable in IE6. It is a nightmare, and I am not going through that unless I am getting paid.
Common "Arguments"
"But IE6 works fine for me right now"
Oh, shut up. It does not. You are just used to the crap because you have been putting up with it for years. I was the same way. Seriously! I hate upgrading. I even gave up MSN because it said I have to upgrade. And I had many contacts! But this is a browser we are talking about, the software that puts in more hours than any other. If there is any program that needs to be up to date, it's a browser.
"But I really like the IE6 interface"
Yeah, you have to have 8 separate windows open to view 8 different pages. I'd really like that, too. IE7 has a very similiar interface, only better!
"Hey! You can't tell me what to use!"
Chill out! I can make a suggestion. Take it for what it's worth. You will have to upgrade eventually, so you might as well do it now and get it over with. It takes a few seconds, and you will be happier with the newer version.
"I tried IE7 a while ago and it was pretty bad"
Yeah, I tried it too. I also thought it was pretty bad. I even made some ruthless comments on the IE blog just to let them know how I felt. However, they have since fixed all the annoying bugs and now everything is fine so I use it exclusively.
Move Forward, Don't Stand Still!
People tend to settle for what works and leave it at that. If it ain't broke, then don't fix it. That bullshit phrase has no meaning in the world wide web because if you allow something to break, you might not even get the chance to fix it. If you can fix it, you might have lost quite a bit along the way. So, it's obviously a better decision to stay ahead of the game not fall behind. Don't be an e-caboose.
Everybody who uses IE6 is contributing to the only bad part of being a web developer. Users need to stop using IE6 and developers need to stop writing code for IE6. Otherwise we are only reversing the flow of the web (the current, if you will). Time to progress and get on to the bigger and better by adhering to web standards. Help me!
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Comment from cas on November 27th, 2007 at 7:58 PM
First, let me say that your site looks great in IE7.
Now on to the IE6 arguement.... it is your choice to support or not support IE6, but the fact of the matter is that only about 30%-35% of web users are using IE7. That's the info from my site logs for a few sites... give/take a few %. So you are pushing away the majority of web users because you do not want to support older browsers.
There are other reasons why people do not upgrade to IE7. Some people do not have the time... they maybe use the internet for a few minutes a night to go to their favorite sites and that's it... other people do not know how to upgrade because perhaps their computers are not set up for auto updates, etc... other people equate time to money and won't upgrade a network when they have software that works in IE6 and hasn't been ported to IE7 yet.
In other words, there are reasons why people do not move to IE7.
This type of mentality drives me NUTS. I see people out there that hype firefox, or macs, just as passionately. You know what though? Person X or Y has their computer set up a certain way and it works for them. Leave it at that. Don't try and force people to do things YOUR way.. the only thing you will do is make yourself look like a pushy ass and drive traffic away from your site.
I run a lot of websites and spend a lot of time coding cross browser. I hate it, but I have to do it or I do not make money. Such is life!
Now on to the IE6 arguement.... it is your choice to support or not support IE6, but the fact of the matter is that only about 30%-35% of web users are using IE7. That's the info from my site logs for a few sites... give/take a few %. So you are pushing away the majority of web users because you do not want to support older browsers.
There are other reasons why people do not upgrade to IE7. Some people do not have the time... they maybe use the internet for a few minutes a night to go to their favorite sites and that's it... other people do not know how to upgrade because perhaps their computers are not set up for auto updates, etc... other people equate time to money and won't upgrade a network when they have software that works in IE6 and hasn't been ported to IE7 yet.
In other words, there are reasons why people do not move to IE7.
This type of mentality drives me NUTS. I see people out there that hype firefox, or macs, just as passionately. You know what though? Person X or Y has their computer set up a certain way and it works for them. Leave it at that. Don't try and force people to do things YOUR way.. the only thing you will do is make yourself look like a pushy ass and drive traffic away from your site.
I run a lot of websites and spend a lot of time coding cross browser. I hate it, but I have to do it or I do not make money. Such is life!
Comment from Josh Stodola
on November 27th, 2007 at 9:11 PM
Very impressive comment, sir. Thank you very much. You hit the nail on the head. Which is why just about everything I work on except this blog is the same as what you have described. And such is life!! Perfect.
I figure a person would use IE6 for one of two reasons. They must be computer illiterate, or they must be at their job where they are forced to use it. I made a choice. This blog is not for people who are computer illiterate! And for those at work, they can still subscribe to the RSS feed in Outlook.
It seriously would be far too much work to make this site look nice in IE6, becuase the whole design is based on alpha transparency. I could use the hacks, but I am siding with Nick La.
http://www.webdesignerwall.com/general/trash-all-ie-hacks/
Thanks again for the fantastic comment. And allow me to note that I am not singling this site out to IE7. This site looks equally as great in all standards-compliant browsers such as Opera, Firefox, Nestcape, Safari, SeaMonkey, etc.
Kind regards...
I figure a person would use IE6 for one of two reasons. They must be computer illiterate, or they must be at their job where they are forced to use it. I made a choice. This blog is not for people who are computer illiterate! And for those at work, they can still subscribe to the RSS feed in Outlook.
It seriously would be far too much work to make this site look nice in IE6, becuase the whole design is based on alpha transparency. I could use the hacks, but I am siding with Nick La.
http://www.webdesignerwall.com/general/trash-all-ie-hacks/
Thanks again for the fantastic comment. And allow me to note that I am not singling this site out to IE7. This site looks equally as great in all standards-compliant browsers such as Opera, Firefox, Nestcape, Safari, SeaMonkey, etc.
Kind regards...
Comment from Sean on November 27th, 2007 at 9:21 PM
I hate IE6 as much as the next guy. It just doesn't render the web properly. Unfortunately, it became a near-standard and stayed that way for quite some time. Now, we are suffering the consequences.
I don't mind that you chose not to support it. If this were a commercial site, you would have no choice. But, due to the fact that you have a choice (which is rare), I see no reason to not exercise it.
Unfortunately, this sounds like you have limited yourself slightly in your blog topic choices. If you don't write about IE hacks, there isn't much content for a blog about web development, is there? (Please note the sarcasm and joke at IE6's expense above.)
I don't mind that you chose not to support it. If this were a commercial site, you would have no choice. But, due to the fact that you have a choice (which is rare), I see no reason to not exercise it.
Unfortunately, this sounds like you have limited yourself slightly in your blog topic choices. If you don't write about IE hacks, there isn't much content for a blog about web development, is there? (Please note the sarcasm and joke at IE6's expense above.)
Comment from Josh Stodola on November 27th, 2007 at 9:25 PM
"You just blew my mind." -Kramer
Comment from Mischa Kroon on November 28th, 2007 at 3:11 AM
I love using IE 6 with a shell around it like: maxthon / avant browser / crazy browser / whatever.
It should be used for testing most web applications so I need at least one machine which I browse on regularly to have this browser running.
Not supporting IE 6 seems like a weird thing to do.
It should be used for testing most web applications so I need at least one machine which I browse on regularly to have this browser running.
Not supporting IE 6 seems like a weird thing to do.
Comment from Josh Stodola on November 28th, 2007 at 7:24 AM
I don't think it is a weird thing to do, I think it's the right thing to do. IE6 incorrectly renders CSS, and it's not my fault. Are we (developers) really going to have to deal with it for the rest of our lives? Will we ever move on?
As Sean mentioned, this is a rare case becuase this site is a personal blog with no commercial value and I can do whatever I want with it. In any other situation, I would have to support IE6 otherwise it would be a harmful decision. But I get to exercise my right to decide. And to be honest, I think it would be weird to go out of my way to support a browser that does a piss-poor job of rendering CSS.
As Sean mentioned, this is a rare case becuase this site is a personal blog with no commercial value and I can do whatever I want with it. In any other situation, I would have to support IE6 otherwise it would be a harmful decision. But I get to exercise my right to decide. And to be honest, I think it would be weird to go out of my way to support a browser that does a piss-poor job of rendering CSS.
Comment from Gilchrist on November 28th, 2007 at 11:59 PM
dont use slang words.. you are not a professional personnel...
Comment from Josh Stodola on November 29th, 2007 at 12:03 AM
That's pretty funny considering the comment you just posted 20 minutes ago. Practice what you preach, Mr. Professional.
Comment from Will Asrari on November 29th, 2007 at 12:04 AM
A current site I am working on shows that 60% of the users use IE6. These 60% of the users are 100% of the problem. Forcing file downloads via Generic Handlers, idiotic caching of asynchronous requests, lack of support for png, are just a few of the problems.
IE6 sucks. agreed.
IE6 sucks. agreed.
Comment from Simon Deshaies on December 5th, 2007 at 2:30 PM
Very nice blog, I find it visually mind blowing, thanks for the sight.
For IE 7 I went trough the same transition then you, as a web developer I believe I despise IE 6 as much as you do.
For IE 7 I went trough the same transition then you, as a web developer I believe I despise IE 6 as much as you do.
Comment from Josh Stodola on December 5th, 2007 at 4:47 PM
Wow Simon, "visually mind blowing" is a very nice comment! Thanks alot! I appreciate it.
Comment from David Roh on December 10th, 2007 at 6:53 PM
Okay, I will switch to IE 7 in a heartbeat if you can just tell me how to solve this problem - I have hundreds of favorites folders and when IE 7 opens "Add to Favorites" it insist on expanding every single folder which takes forever and then there is the really bad part of trying to find the folder that I want to store the link in. My folders are in excess of six levels deep which means trying to find a specific folder can be very challenging and take forever.
I don't know who decided that opening "Add to Favorites" fully expanded was a good thing - I especially cannot figure out why they decided not to provide an option to open non-expanded.
Anyway, I have started using the favorites side bar which at least is bearable for adding favorites but I hate the screen space that it takes up and have to open and close it every time I add a link.
I have search numerous times on the Internet and found many other people who are frustrated with this problem but I have never found a solution.
So...., show me a solution and I will be glad to change to IE 7 because everything else is great; however, there really are more than two reasons for keeping IE 6.
BTW I am not computer illiterate and I work at home with my own machines which I configure as I choose.
Anyway, you have a really nice web site - thank you for sharing.
David
I don't know who decided that opening "Add to Favorites" fully expanded was a good thing - I especially cannot figure out why they decided not to provide an option to open non-expanded.
Anyway, I have started using the favorites side bar which at least is bearable for adding favorites but I hate the screen space that it takes up and have to open and close it every time I add a link.
I have search numerous times on the Internet and found many other people who are frustrated with this problem but I have never found a solution.
So...., show me a solution and I will be glad to change to IE 7 because everything else is great; however, there really are more than two reasons for keeping IE 6.
BTW I am not computer illiterate and I work at home with my own machines which I configure as I choose.
Anyway, you have a really nice web site - thank you for sharing.
David
Comment from Josh Stodola on December 10th, 2007 at 8:54 PM
Hello David, and thank you for stopping by and commenting. Let me start by saying you have all the right in the world to choose whatever browser you want, and that I respect that decision but I simply had to set a benchmark when designing this site. I chose to utilize some advanced technologies that old browsers simply do not support. It was my choice as the creator of this *personal* blog, and it is your choice as the visitor.
Unfortunately, I am unable to re-create the problem that you have described. I also have several folders to organize my list of favorites, although I cannot say that I have any folders nested within folders. When I open up the "favorites center" it leaves the folders shut, and the same thing happens for me when bringing up the favorites from the main menu. I have no idea why it would be automatically expanding your favorites, although I might suggest restructuring/organizing them. I really don't see any reason to have nested folders in your favorites list, but that's just my opinion. You shouldn't have to modify your favorites to upgrade a browser, that's true, but without being able to re-create the problem you have described I don't know what else to tell you.
If you have the time to send me a screenshot of the problem you are having, I would be more than happy to look into it further, as I have already spent many hours venting frustrations with the IE7 development team during the initial release, so I might be able to help. Thanks again for stopping by!
Unfortunately, I am unable to re-create the problem that you have described. I also have several folders to organize my list of favorites, although I cannot say that I have any folders nested within folders. When I open up the "favorites center" it leaves the folders shut, and the same thing happens for me when bringing up the favorites from the main menu. I have no idea why it would be automatically expanding your favorites, although I might suggest restructuring/organizing them. I really don't see any reason to have nested folders in your favorites list, but that's just my opinion. You shouldn't have to modify your favorites to upgrade a browser, that's true, but without being able to re-create the problem you have described I don't know what else to tell you.
If you have the time to send me a screenshot of the problem you are having, I would be more than happy to look into it further, as I have already spent many hours venting frustrations with the IE7 development team during the initial release, so I might be able to help. Thanks again for stopping by!
Comment from Some.NET(Guy) on December 14th, 2007 at 12:54 PM
@David -
Collapse all your folders and then click the little star that makes the favorites disappear. Next time you open your favorites, viola!, they will be collapsed. Lordy...
@post
If IE6 were a person, not only would I NOT be friends with him, but I would kick his ass, take his lunch money, take his mom out to a nice seafood dinner and never call her again, and he would not be invited to my birthday party. Oh, and I would probably send a couple of drop kicks to the face his way. And then I would rip his arms out and beat him to death with them.
Death to IE6!
Collapse all your folders and then click the little star that makes the favorites disappear. Next time you open your favorites, viola!, they will be collapsed. Lordy...
@post
If IE6 were a person, not only would I NOT be friends with him, but I would kick his ass, take his lunch money, take his mom out to a nice seafood dinner and never call her again, and he would not be invited to my birthday party. Oh, and I would probably send a couple of drop kicks to the face his way. And then I would rip his arms out and beat him to death with them.
Death to IE6!
Comment from Josh Stodola on December 14th, 2007 at 12:58 PM
ROFL! Ruthless! Thankfully IE6 is not a person.
Comment from Tom Hall on December 16th, 2007 at 12:14 PM
ha, absolutely hilarious, but in all fairness, dont use IE full stop. Firefox FTW :)
Comment from jordy on December 16th, 2007 at 6:34 PM
Why not turn stylesheets off for ie6? It's a friendlier way to say: upgrade! They'll also be able to view your content without the annoyance of a pop-up system window.
Comment from Josh Stodola on December 16th, 2007 at 8:19 PM
That is a very interesting idea, Jordy! I will definitely consider that, you make a good point. Thanks alot for the feedback!
Comment from wahyu on December 23rd, 2007 at 11:33 PM
i came to this blog after read your comment (javascript guru) on scott gu blog. I think you should turn this alert thing off not because it is ugly, it also didn't detect my browser correctly. I use IE 7 and i got that alert saying i need to upgrade. Upgrade to what please ??
Comment from Josh Stodola on December 24th, 2007 at 2:30 PM
Yes I am sorry for the inconvenience. I am working on a different way to alert IE6 users that is less intrusive. You must have IE6, because in IE7 an alert does not show. I have tried it on IE7 on several different machines and I do not get an alert. Perhaps you are still using a beta version?
Comment from Mark Smith on January 17th, 2008 at 7:21 PM
I understand why you've done this, and I fully appreciate the need to educate users into the software they use.
However, sometimes users are forced into a certain situation. For example, at my current workplace, all employees are forced to access the internet via citrix, and guess what browser they get to use? IE6 :) This is corporate policy that I can't see getting changed for a considerable amount of time, and I'm pretty sure that there are other places that have similar policies in place. Luckily, I am not forced into the same policy as everyone else, so I get to browse you site how I want (and it's a nice site by the way).
What is your take on that? Should those users be punished by not being allowed to view the site (or whatever measure you decided to put in place for these users)? Surely it would be better to just have an unobtrusive (is that a word?) method of informing them. Perhaps a conditional stylesheet for IE6 user's which shows a message which is otherwise hidden?
However, sometimes users are forced into a certain situation. For example, at my current workplace, all employees are forced to access the internet via citrix, and guess what browser they get to use? IE6 :) This is corporate policy that I can't see getting changed for a considerable amount of time, and I'm pretty sure that there are other places that have similar policies in place. Luckily, I am not forced into the same policy as everyone else, so I get to browse you site how I want (and it's a nice site by the way).
What is your take on that? Should those users be punished by not being allowed to view the site (or whatever measure you decided to put in place for these users)? Surely it would be better to just have an unobtrusive (is that a word?) method of informing them. Perhaps a conditional stylesheet for IE6 user's which shows a message which is otherwise hidden?
Comment from Josh Stodola on January 17th, 2008 at 7:35 PM
Mark, I like the way you think! I know some people are forced to use IE6, and you are right, I am sorta punishing them. Maybe if enough sites punish these users, then the administrators will realize it's about time to upgrade? There is serious strength in numbers ;)
And yes, unobtrusive is the perfect word. In fact, I have already put in some code for exactly what you suggested: a conditional message. It's a div layer, actually, and it will show up for IE6 users and older, with a picture insisting to upgrade. I just haven't implemented it on the server yet; I have been making some internal changes as well. Hopefully I can finish that within the next couple of days.
Thanks for the comment!
And yes, unobtrusive is the perfect word. In fact, I have already put in some code for exactly what you suggested: a conditional message. It's a div layer, actually, and it will show up for IE6 users and older, with a picture insisting to upgrade. I just haven't implemented it on the server yet; I have been making some internal changes as well. Hopefully I can finish that within the next couple of days.
Thanks for the comment!
Comment from Graeme on January 22nd, 2008 at 2:27 PM
Dear Josh,
THANKS for your rants on IE6 (yes, I received your dinosaur browser message). At work, we are required to stick with IE6, as it is the "standard". I wonder how much time is spent dicking with the "standard" when an upgrade to something better would save the same time!
Graeme Martin
THANKS for your rants on IE6 (yes, I received your dinosaur browser message). At work, we are required to stick with IE6, as it is the "standard". I wonder how much time is spent dicking with the "standard" when an upgrade to something better would save the same time!
Graeme Martin
Comment from M. Westrell on January 26th, 2008 at 10:02 PM
Josh - I agree with you about IE6. Unfortunately, my employer has blocked distribution of IE7 within our domain for the time being. On a positive note, at least my boss has told us developers to test our sites with IE7 so we'll be ready for the rollout whenever.
Comment from bs. on January 30th, 2008 at 4:08 PM
LOL!!! Beautifully stated!
Comment from vikram on February 7th, 2008 at 10:03 PM
I really Liked this Idea. May be will implement in My site also. Way to go... But what about people still using windows 98?
Comment from Josh Stodola on February 7th, 2008 at 10:08 PM
Hi Vikram! The scenario is circumstantial. Considering that this is a technical blog about web development, I would not expect anybody using Windows 98 to stop by. It all depends on your web site's target audience. Even if your site does work in IE6, why not insist on an upgrade?
Regards...
Regards...
Comment from Voyagerfan5761 on March 1st, 2008 at 2:31 AM
This just about captures my sentiments regarding IE6's broken rendering. I had to spend a couple weeks tweaking an IE6-only stylesheet for a site template design I did that works pretty perfectly in IE7. I did manage to make it work properly, and the resulting template can be seen on http://www.swrobotics.com/, of which I am the administrator and resident coder.
That's the PHP programming I spoke of in another comment somewhere. I originally developed that template with different colors, for more of a personal site. Then I thought what a great idea it would be to port it and use it on a site that people will actually see.
Like you, I tried to stick to standards. I broke a few rules, though; my stylesheet doesn't validate because there are -moz- properties in it. And I think I have a couple HTML errors here and there (I'm on HTML 4.01 Strict, not XHTML yet). It works in Firefox 2, IE7, and IE6. The non-FF browsers don't get rounded corners, though.
That's the PHP programming I spoke of in another comment somewhere. I originally developed that template with different colors, for more of a personal site. Then I thought what a great idea it would be to port it and use it on a site that people will actually see.
Like you, I tried to stick to standards. I broke a few rules, though; my stylesheet doesn't validate because there are -moz- properties in it. And I think I have a couple HTML errors here and there (I'm on HTML 4.01 Strict, not XHTML yet). It works in Firefox 2, IE7, and IE6. The non-FF browsers don't get rounded corners, though.
Comment from Glen on March 14th, 2008 at 4:31 PM
Dude, I also get the notice to upgrade when browsing from IE7, so something is amiss with your detection script.
Help shows IE 7.0.5730.11
Glen
Help shows IE 7.0.5730.11
Glen
Comment from Glen on April 3rd, 2008 at 6:07 PM
Why not tell them to use Firefox. It complies to standards, its faster, uses less load and its always about 3 steps ahead of clunky old IE.
Comment from Josh Stodola on April 3rd, 2008 at 6:22 PM
No offense, Glen, but I think Firefox blows. It is not faster than IE7, no way. When I click on the desktop IE7 icon, Google is up in my face in no time. Firefox takes a significant amount of time to load. It also renders pages slower. No thanks...
Comment from Glen H (not from myholden.com) on April 29th, 2008 at 10:03 PM
Apparently there are two Glens commenting here. I am the first one and I agree that Firefox is incredibly slow to load. However, it is working to post this comment, whereas my copy of IE 7 still fails to load this page (because it is detected as IE 6).
Thanks,
Glen
Thanks,
Glen
Comment from Sean on July 11th, 2008 at 3:25 PM
"It seriously would be far too much work to make this site look nice in IE6, becuase the whole design is based on alpha transparency."
Apparently it was far too much work to make your site look nice in IE7, too.
Your problem isn't IE6, your problem is this stupid alpha-transparency based site design. Oh yeah, I just love pulling them up on my cell phone, PDA, or any 5 year old machine without a GPU. If the particular browser I'm using knows how to handle the transparency, the thing is slower than shit. If it can't, it just plain looks like shit. That's my most favorite thing in the world!
And exactly when did it become okay by Web design standards to foist 140KB background images on our users? On my mobile data plan that's more than $2.00 a pop, just to see some shitty Windows desktop image. Sorry I'm not a basement dweller, shackled to my network connection by a stretch of CAT5 cable. I like to get out a little and see the world, catch up on my reading in sociable areas. Thank God it won't include your site.
Apparently it was far too much work to make your site look nice in IE7, too.
Your problem isn't IE6, your problem is this stupid alpha-transparency based site design. Oh yeah, I just love pulling them up on my cell phone, PDA, or any 5 year old machine without a GPU. If the particular browser I'm using knows how to handle the transparency, the thing is slower than shit. If it can't, it just plain looks like shit. That's my most favorite thing in the world!
And exactly when did it become okay by Web design standards to foist 140KB background images on our users? On my mobile data plan that's more than $2.00 a pop, just to see some shitty Windows desktop image. Sorry I'm not a basement dweller, shackled to my network connection by a stretch of CAT5 cable. I like to get out a little and see the world, catch up on my reading in sociable areas. Thank God it won't include your site.
Comment from Josh Stodola on July 11th, 2008 at 4:43 PM
Sean - utilize the full RSS feed and shut your feeble mouth.
Comment from jt on July 25th, 2008 at 11:27 PM
Dude, I love your attitude. You and I have a lot in common. I will look forward to your future posts!
Thanks.
Thanks.
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